Heartfelt Apologies
Heartfelt apologies go out to those who were offended by the use of a word Brad Stine spoke at the GODMEN event in
“As a Christian man, I don’t believe it proper to curse on a regular basis in my life, but I’ve certainly done it before, as have many of you. That is what we are talking about at Godmen today, learning to just be real and honest, and not acting like suddenly I’m not a good Christian.
"…I said “ bull***” on the screen – you saw me say it. I did it on purpose to make a point. Now, it’s ironic, because I’ve made a living for 18 years not using these words in my show. Why? Because, for contextual reasons, I believe the art of comedy is greater if you don’t have to use a curse word. That’s why I don’t do it and never will.
“….The same metaphor was used by Paul, who said ‘Everything I used to have is gone for Jesus. But I count what I had as dung.’ He said ‘dung, caca, poop, it’s the same stinkin’ thing! It’s what happens when nutrients go in and everything that’s good was sucked out of it and all that is left is meaninglessness – that is why Paul also used the word – to show you anything apart from Christ is meaningless. And so we are going to explore that...”
There was no attempt to fact-check the claims about profanity made by the heavily-edited (by someone who was not present at the event) LOS ANGELES TIMES piece. It also seemed to imply that Godmen/Mr. Stine believes we SHOULD curse to be a “real” Christian man which we never said and absolutely do not believe! If you would like a fact-based look into the world of Brad Stine, feel free to read the meticulously verified NEW YORKER story from August of 2004 or THE NEW YORK TIMES piece from September 2005 instead.
29 Comments:
At 1:10 PM , Anonymous said...
I am sorry…I apologies…Please forgive me. These words summarize the feelings of doing wrong. When we have done nothing wrong should we say them? NO… our savior never said them even when he spoke harshly toward those poppas church leaders of his day who could not grasp…GRACE.
Why then do we have to say it? Only 30-40% of our churches are men and yet none of us are willing to fight for anything, but we will fight each other all day long. I have just sought to purchase tickets from one of Brad Stine’s, upcoming shows and take my 8 year old son to see him for the third time, and I am going to name names, Gardendale First Baptist Church of Gardendale, Alabama, told me they had canceled his show because his material was to controversial.
Yet in that church like every other church across our nation men are sitting at their computer screens looking at material, and self satisfying themselves, with no one in these churches doing anything about it. Yet controversy is saying one cuss word! Controversy is stating the obvious. Controversy is laughing at our own selves, our own pain, and the stupid things we do, in the name of Jesus.
Well those churches out there watch out. It is time for men of God to stand up, do something stop, apologizing for doing nothing wrong, stop running from those blue hair old ladies, stand our ground, and take back those churches of George Washington.
I would ask those men and women of Gardendale FBC, do you ever say words, behind someone’s back, I know because I have been there, did you let my family out of the parking lot when we were in line of 20 cars, or did you just go? Have you ever said a cuss word? If so ban yourself you disserve no grace, because Jesus said if you are not willing to give it you will not receive it!
Brad keep up the work, you have support in Mobile, and I‘ll make sure God’s movement will not be shut down by the Pharisees in our faith!
Slackin
At 8:27 PM , Aaron said...
Slackin, well said and thank you. I like your point about the churches of George Washington. It always amazes me to see the problems in our society when so many people profess to go to Church? Our forefathers were real men, that took more risk then any of us will probably ever do so.
Men have been turned into cowards, and it's festering through our churches. Stand up for what is right, stop worrying about upsetting the women with something controversial, and stop whining in a fight to see who can be the most offended. IMHO, our societies problems are a result of Christian men retreating in battle.
Brad, I would love for you guys to come to Indianapolis.
At 8:59 PM , Aaron said...
P.S... I now have my ticket for Franklin, TN. I am looking forward to it!
At 8:38 PM , Xtian said...
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.
At 8:58 PM , Xtian said...
Apparently Brad Stine is really lacking when it comes to hermenutics, biblical defintions and use of context. Of course this is to be expected as "godmen" does not allow clergy (only the laity can lead this bottom's up revolution [you got to be kidding me] - again Brad... words have meaning).
Anyway, if Brad had taken a few minutes to research his claim about Paul, he would have found something quite different (for those who want the short version), Brad is wrong about the word "dung" and its supposed meaning of excrement/feces and his claim that "bullsh|t" is acceptable when used in context.
Here is the verse Brad is talking about...
Philippians 3:8
(KJV) "Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ..."
Now if look at the Strong's definition of the word "dung" you will find that it means...
G4657
σκύβαλον skubalon skoo'-bal-on
Neuter of a presumed derivative of G1519 and G2965 and G906; what is thrown to the dogs, that is, refuse.
This indicates that it is not indeed feces, but scaps that are good for nothing except to be thrown to the dogs (which is eaten). Matter of fact if you check other translations you will see that the word "dung" is NOT translated as "excrement" or "feces" (sh|t) but more accurately as (check these out)...
ESV = rubbish
YLT = refuse
NIV = rubbish
NASB = rubbish
AMP = rubbish (refuse, dregs)
ASV = refuse
NLT = garbage
NKJV = rubbish
You get the point ;)
The accurate word translations of the bible DO NOT use the word dung as feces/excrement. So the next question is... Is there a word that actually means "excrement/feces" in the bible?
Yep... lets take a look at...
Exodus 29:14
(KJV) "But the flesh of the bullock, and his skin, and his dung, shalt thou burn with fire without the camp: it is a sin offering."
The word "dung" here is defined by Strong's as...
H6569
פּרשׁ peresh peh'-resh
From H6567; excrement
So we can plainly see that Brad's claim of Paul using "dung" is not the same as him using the word "bullsh|t!" no matter the context.
Again Brad, words have meaning, and the words you have used are wrong (at least according to scripture).
What I think is a huge red flag is that Brad will not use that word in his comedy routines, but he does use it despite the fact the bible commands us to be holy (set apart) from the world. Matter of fact the bible says...
Ephesians 4:29
"Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers."
The bible commentator Matthew Henry, (along with other widely accepted bible scholars), says the following about "corrupt communication/unwholesome talk" (which includes the term "bullsh|t")...
We are here warned against corrupt communication; and directed to that which is useful and edifying, Eph_4:29. Filthy and unclean words and discourse are poisonous and infectious, as putrid rotten meat: they proceed from and prove a great deal of corruption in the heart of the speaker, and tend to corrupt the minds and manners of others who hear them; and therefore Christians should beware of all such discourse. It may be taken in general for all that which provokes the lusts and passions of others. We must not only put off corrupt communications, but put on that which is good to the use of edifying. The great use of speech is to edify those with whom we converse. Christians should endeavour to promote a useful conversation: that it may minister grace unto the hearers; that it may be good for, and acceptable to, the hearers, in the way of information, counsel, pertinent reproof, or the like. Observe, It is the great duty of Christians to take care that they offend not with their lips, and that they improve discourse and converse, as much as may be, for the good of others.
Brad's statement shows his lack of biblical knowledge, or at least his lack of research, and shows how he does not rightly divide the word of God (I hope it is just out of ignorance, as that can be fixed, and out of a disregard for God's word which carries a harsh penalty).
Brad, perhaps if you used your bible as your standard to find out what IS ACTUALLY true, instead of telling people what you THINK is true, you see the difference.
My prayers go out to you and all the men (and women) out there.
TC&GB,
Xtian
p.s. my reply is not to imply that I am perfect or that I have attained some great level of godliness, but rather to just reproach and encourage believers to esteem the bible over the words of a man who pulls verses out of context to support his "unwholesome" speach.
What I would really like to hear is what Brad thinks being "holy" is all about. Unfortunately I can already see how he views it... and it doestn measure up to scripture. Hopefully Brad you will read this and do some serious digging into your bible. Peace!
At 10:26 AM , Anonymous Apostate said...
Actually, maybe Brad did look it up. Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon translates "skubalon" as dung, excrement, manure, refuse, offal.
Maybe instead of bashing a conference you didnt attend and spreading lies about it you should attend a conference. But that is right, you think the men who attend them are less Christian than middle schoolers ("I know middle school children who are more Godly than most men who will attend these events.") But then again, how would you know not having attended.
By the way, if you object to the word "freakin'", what do you have your kids say when they have to potty. Hate to break it to you, but if they use the word poop, thats the same meaning as "sh*t". Or what about their 'bottom' or 'behind' because wouldnt that be the same as 'a$$'?
When I first has my apostacy, I used to say "Its not people like you that turned me away, Its people like me." But I take that back Xtian. It is people like you. You have NO idea what went on, just what you read in the papers. They same papers mind you that you more than likely would deem liberal media if they wrote about the war in Iraq, yet you take their word on their coverage of this conference.
We get it. You disagree with the use of a curseword. Move on. Alot more happened there that you dont know about. They DID stress loving their wives, being faithful, leading your families (and not through force but through love and prayer and bible study). You are taking one aspect and demonizing a movement that is having and is going to have a huge impact on Christian men. These men were not there to celebrate their testosterone. They were there to be able to not only learn about their faith and grow in their faith but to have the FREEDOM to be men. Yes, the songs were corny, yes, they mentioned stereotypical guy stuff. but NEVER did this conference encourage sitting around and watching sports all day.
Please, I appreciate your concern for these men. But you dont have all the facts. And please dont just cite Strong's and a bunch of different bible translations. Do a touch more research. You seem like a VERY intelligent guy. You obviously realize the intricacies of word translation, especially concerning Greek and Hebrew. Just as you would have to ask mulitple people what the meaning of a particular contemporary word means, you must realize the need to consult multiple lexicon sources as well. If you use the Bible as your main guide would be very interested in hearing your explanations on certain points (i.e. -> Unicorns in the KJV).
Peace and love.
At 12:12 PM , Anonymous Apostate said...
One more thing. The people who put Godmen on would be more than happy to hear SUGGESTIONS. So instead of just bashing them, try offering your opinion and suggesting ways to make it better. I know this is difficult not having been there, but I am sure they would be more than happy to consider any and all CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM.
At 6:00 PM , Xtian said...
Anonymous Apostate said...
Actually, maybe Brad did look it up. Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon translates "skubalon" as dung, excrement, manure, refuse, offal.
I don’t know if he looked it up or not, but his words (direct quote from Brad himself and the godmen sites & blogs), its suspicious when measured against the rest of scripture. Also if you look at the majority of references & commentaries in regards to Phil 3:8 it better indicates refuse, rubbish, garbage, rather than a place where Paul used coarse language, swearing, etc to prove a point. It follows the most accepted and traditional hermeneutics of this passage.
Saying what Paul said in Phil 3:8 is the same as someone using “BS”, “sh|t” or other coarse language is not the norm or seen in any of the other disciples writings found in the bible (IOW its out of context with the rest of God’s word). Again the majority of translations, references and commentaries show this to be true, but more importantly is it in context with the rest of scripture (about this topic of coarse/profane language)?
IOW anyone can pull one verse out of context to prove anything, that is why it is so important to follow the “whole” counsel of God.
If you think coarse language is okay, that’s your choice – and good luck with that.
Maybe instead of bashing a conference you didnt attend and spreading lies about it you should attend a conference. But that is right, you think the men who attend them are less Christian than middle schoolers ("I know middle school children who are more Godly than most men who will attend these events.") But then again, how would you know not having attended.
Yes that is true I haven’t attended the event, as it has not come to my neck of the woods (if it does I plan on attending rest assured).
As for your accusation that I am spreading lies, I am only looking at what I got from the godmen website and blogs (Brad and godmen's own words) and measured it against the bible. Show me one lie I have told... Ummm... there are none. I am only voicing my concerns (thanks for the ad hominem BTW, most others probably wont catch it, but I did and I will not respond in kind).
Now I know many men who are willfully choosing sin over the obedience and righteousness that Christ commands of His followers. Children seem to accept His commands much easier than those who want their cake and eat it too (i.e. pleasures of sin for a season vs dying to self, obedience, etc). If my stating a simple fact offends you, there is not much I can respond with. Let us move on...
By the way, if you object to the word "freakin'", what do you have your kids say when they have to potty. Hate to break it to you, but if they use the word poop, thats the same meaning as "sh*t". Or what about their 'bottom' or 'behind' because wouldnt that be the same as 'a$$'?
”Freakin” is slang for the F bomb (IOW f_ck).
Poop or poo-poo means waste and does not suggest or imply the act of fornication, adultery, sodomy or rape.
They are two obviously different things (and I have taught my kid the difference using God's word). Matter of fact I just had my daughter and wife read our comments and they cannot believe you tried to say that the F bomb is along the same lines as poo-poo. Oh well...
Again if you cannot distinguish between the two, good luck with that. Nuff said… well... maybe not...
If you do not see the bibles call against coarse and unwholesome language, let me give you a few scriptures to chew on (it is possible that you made this statement from a place of ignorance (which I also did until someone pointed out otherwise). Aslo since the bible and its interpretation should not be based on what one person thinks about one verse, let me add these scriptures for you to consider, and if after that you cannot see where this is wrong, addressed and should be corrected, your argument is not with me, but with God and His word, of which He commands us to submit, follow and obey.
Enjoy.
• But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a person. "
(Matt 15:18-20)
* The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks. "Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and not do what I tell you?
(Luke 6:45-46)
* But that is not the way you learned Christ!-- assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness. Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another. Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and give no opportunity to the devil. Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need. Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.
(Eph 4:20-29)
* Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming. In these you too once walked, when you were living in them. But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth.
(Col 3:5-8)
* Conduct yourselves wisely toward outsiders, making the best use of the time. Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person.
(Col 4:5-6)
* Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
(1Pe 2:1)
* Likewise, urge the younger men to be self-controlled. Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity, and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say about us.
(Tit 2:6-8)
* whoever speaks, speak as one who speaks oracles of God; whoever serves, as one who serves by the strength that God supplies--in order that in everything God may be glorified through Jesus Christ. To him belong glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
(1Pe 4:11)
*NOTE: all these scriptures were addressed and directed to believers (OT believers looking forward to the Messiah and NT believers), and not those outside the faith.
A very wise person said… “If you will not lust in your heart (which is adultery), lie, steal, swear, gossip, slander, etc before the throne of God in heaven or while in church, then why do you find it acceptable to do so when Jesus Christ is supposedly reigning and living in your very heart everyday?”
Ouchie... boy the rubber sure meets the road on that one, and it leaves some deep skid marks too ;)
Ummm… perhaps there is a reason why lots of people do not have an active , deep relationship with God that is noticed or evident by others. Perhaps what we do, offends Him as we choose the things of the world rather than Him. Ummm…
When I first has my apostacy, I used to say "Its not people like you that turned me away, Its people like me." But I take that back Xtian. It is people like you. You have NO idea what went on, just what you read in the papers. They same papers mind you that you more than likely would deem liberal media if they wrote about the war in Iraq, yet you take their word on their coverage of this conference.
Again I am not giving you my standards to follow, but just what is clearly seen in the bible. Just because I bring to light a problem area when measured against scripture, thus I am a terrible person, arrogant and narrow minded, without the love of Christ? That I am the type of person/reason that you turned away? Again your logic does not follow. Dude, if it was my call we would all be fat dumb and happy with no responsibilities whatsoever (thank God that is not the case and the bible says different).
As for your claim that I am only going off of what the liberal media says, let me assure you that I have gotten about 98% of the material I commented on from the godmen website and blogs (about this coarse language bit, I got it 100% from the godmen and brad stine blog). Only a few times did I ever reference any outside liberal media… why? Because the liberal media is so one sided (as you stated) so I decided to go to the source and stick with that... I just wanted to clear that up for you.
Now according to your logic, because you don’t know all of me, you therefore with the standard of God’s word cannot point out an area in my life that needs correction or reproof as you see it? Wow that is something different. Don’t you know that a person who breaks the law is not judged for the good things they have done in their lives, but rather they have to answer for the laws and standards they have broken. It is one way in which correction can come about, by holding up and measuring the words and actions of those to God’s word (me included). If you don’t see this throughout the entire bible (OT and NT) there is nothing more I can say.
But let me ask you this, how then do you address the words of Christ and especially His disciples who judged other believers (by their words, actions and deeds but didnt witness the entire situation in person) using God’s word in regards to slander, sexual sins, gossip, false doctrine, and all other manner of sins that offend God? Or do you disregard those parts of the NT? (leaving a pretty lean NT to say the least). Just curious (no sarcasm intended).
We get it. You disagree with the use of a curseword. Move on. Alot more happened there that you dont know about. They DID stress loving their wives, being faithful, leading your families (and not through force but through love and prayer and bible study). You are taking one aspect and demonizing a movement that is having and is going to have a huge impact on Christian men. These men were not there to celebrate their testosterone. They were there to be able to not only learn about their faith and grow in their faith but to have the FREEDOM to be men. Yes, the songs were corny, yes, they mentioned stereotypical guy stuff. but NEVER did this conference encourage sitting around and watching sports all day.
It’s good that you did “get it”.
My point is not to “dis” the whole godmen thing, but to rather point out things that can be improved upon so that those who are not Christian (the “lost” media” or anyone else) can have no reason to condemn us - ref Titus 2:6-8. I remember something about being holy and righteous in word and deed, so we can glorify the Father, thru Jesus Christ our Lord.
As for the “freedom to be men”, I don’t see that anywhere in scripture (Paul stated that he counted all things a loss to the cause of knowing Christ), but I do see numerous times where we are called to the freedom from sin, that only Christ can bring, so that God may be glorified in everything we do (IOW gender has nothing to do with it). Isnt it strange that for over 2,000+ years gender has not been an issue, but sin, holiness, righteousness and obedience is? What I have pointed out are discrepencies in definition (from what godmen/brad says, and what the bible says - see my comment about what Brad says worship could/should be... its totally non-biblical).
Its intesesting that you see my noticing and voicing these things as demonizing. Now that doesnt mean that I think the modern church is without faults...
I agree that there are some things that are wrong with some churches today. Holding hands with everyone in church is uncomfortable (I really, really dislike it, just like Brad stated when I saw him during a christian comedy concert that my church organized for our city). Its not only uncomfortable for men, but women as well; it takes my mind off of the worshipping God – so simply, I don’t do it. If being a man is standing up and saying to my neighbor in church “no” to holding hands, I will gladly explain my concerns afterword, and be a man, but I dont think its a male/female gender issue, mainly because it effects all people, men, women, and children... To me this isn’t taking back church from women, but keeping church as a place to worship and praise Him, and to get better equipped to do His will.
Too easy.
Please, I appreciate your concern for these men. But you dont have all the facts. And please dont just cite Strong's and a bunch of different bible translations. Do a touch more research. You seem like a VERY intelligent guy. You obviously realize the intricacies of word translation, especially concerning Greek and Hebrew. Just as you would have to ask mulitple people what the meaning of a particular contemporary word means, you must realize the need to consult multiple lexicon sources as well.
Interesting that you tell me to not site Strong’s, to consult the more accurate word translations of the bible (and the more traditional and widely accepted conservative commentaries) and yet you tell me to do more research. I guess you should know that a lone lexicon is not the silver bullet as you portray it to be. Let me also add that I did use some lexicons but I just neglected to state it (I am long winded as it is - but I would rather be long winded and better understood than brief and totally misunderstood). As you know lexicons give the general definitions of those words, more research IS required to find the real meaning in which they were used (which can vary depending on usage, from verb tense, placement with the text, etc). When you look at different sources and compare them to other each other, you see the difference (and its a big difference). What is extremely clear is that Paul’s wording did not mean what slang/coarse language the world used back then or today (such as “cr@p”, “sh|t”, “BS”) for a means of emphasis. These things are normally defined as profane (back then as well as today), especially when you look at the whole of scripture. Its just not there so why are you forcing the issue to make such terms acceptable? Its so much easier to rest in the simplicity of God's word.
Research also showed that emphasis back then was never indicated by Godly men with coarse language, so my point is if it was not appropriate back then why is it suddenly good & okay for today? To say its okay is implying God’s word on its own, is not enough.
That is something that doesn’t jive with the rest of scripture.
One more thing. The people who put Godmen on would be more than happy to hear SUGGESTIONS. So instead of just bashing them, try offering your opinion and suggesting ways to make it better. I know this is difficult not having been there, but I am sure they would be more than happy to consider any and all CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM.
I apologize if you cannot see my attitude or tone in which I write these things (i am far from perfect). I am not bashing out of hate or malice, matter of fact I am not bashing at all, just stating firmly and boldly what I see.
If my 20+ years in the military (in the infantry, armor, cavalry, etc) has made me seem brash at times, I again apologize.
TC&GB (take care & God bless)
Xtian
At 1:33 AM , Anonymous Apostate said...
I think you have misunderstood a few things, for that I blame myself and my lack of time to clarify. I will try to correct said misunderstandings in the short time I have now.
I never said that poop = the f-word. In fact, when I stated if they use the word poop, thats the same meaning as "sh*t". I was simply stating that just as the f-word is the vulgar/profane version of Sex, fornication, etc., Sh*t is the vulgar/profane meaning of crap, poop, etc.
I know the bibles teachings on foul language. What I fail to see is how society's opinion of a word (i.e.-> this word is profane but not its synonym) is the defining word. (no pun intended) Your family's reaction to my previous post, however misunderstood, seems to suggest that even though words have the same meaning, the world has taught us to reject certain ones and not others. Even when I was young, we are talking pre-teen here, this confounded me. We are told to reject the standards of the world and hold fast to what the bible says, yet there is no prescription in the bible as to what words are vulgar and what are not. Of course I am speaking of solitary words. The bible goes to great lengths to admonish blasphemy, lying, gossip, etc. that is obvious, but I see no listing of vulgar and crass words. You yourself used the word Dude in referring to me. Over the years this words meaning has changed greatly. While todays meaning is more positive, not 50 years ago it was term of mockery and slander. I believe curse words are the same. Like I said previously, I dont see the NEED to curse and I very very rarely do so, but I have yet to see where it is a sin in GODS eyes. This I assume is something I will struggle with until my death.
I also never said that you could not or should not use Strong's. I too use it, my copy resides on my shelf along with my other Christian reference material, ready and handy for whenever it is needed. However, I suggested not JUST using Strong's and your bible translations. I realize you probably researched more, but at the same time too many people simply find one they agree with and go with. I am sure I seemed the acme of hipocricy when I offered my singular source as well, but my point was simply that there are scholars, one of which I cited, who would suggest that the word indeed has a possible relation to that of our common words for "excrement." (i.e. -> crap, poop, sh*t) Again, I never said Strong's was not a legitimate source as you led on.
My comment concerning your statement that the men who attended the event in Nashville, or those that would attend the conferences in the future, were less Godly than that of children was not a personal attack (i.e.-> ad hominem). It was simply to state that you seemed to make a blind comment not having been there. You negatively labeled men who were actively seeking out ways to grow in their faith, better their marriages and feel comfortable worshipping God. While we may disagree on the benefits of this conference, you cannot doubt these mens intentions. Please do not insult them for seeking Truth, for seeking is better than not, and we should never stop doing so.
I am also saddened by your implication that I called you a terrible person who is narrow minded, arogant, and lacking the Love of God. It was never my goal to imply any such thing, especially having never actually met you and having the chance to get to know you. While my statement concerning my apostacy may have been made in haste, it directly tied to my constructive criticism comment. (I now see my thoughts were very convoluded and showed no such relation when the text made its way onto the screen) I do not understand Christians who seemingly condemn others for faults knowing full well they are sinners themselves (scriptural, not me calling you a bad person, and I know you yourself pointed out your own short comings). I understand helping each other along in supportive ways not condemning ways, a major point of preaching at the Conference.
We will chalk the erroneous statements about what I said in my post up to miscommunication on my part. I hope the following are just miscommunictations as well:
Suddenly this "godmen" thing seems so trivial when you consider that over 150,000 people die each day and the majority of them are going to burn in Hell; all because a bunch of men would rather celebrate their manliness and try to inject some "christian" testosterone back into the church.
I agree that this world is in a terrible state right now and that the lives lost each day are a horrible tragedy, every solitary one of them. What I dont understand is are the 150,000 thousand people that die every day dying because of Godmen or just going to hell because of it?
Jesus lived a sinless life, and if you contend otherwise your attacking the one thing that sets biblical Christianity apart from all other beliefs (His sinless life that was the only thing that paid for your sin and gave you the possibility of an eternal life with Him, instead of the punishment we all so rightly deserve).
My issue here is not that the bible tells of Jesus' sinless life and his sacrifice of said sinless life for the redemption of sin, but rather that Christianity is the only religion that believes this. Many others do as well, namely the osiris-dionysus myths. While these are of course myths, be not under the impression that the story of Jesus is anywhere close to being unique.
---------------------------------
Again, I appreciate your concern for these men. Maybe you are right about taking your posts in the wrong tone, I am well aware that emotions are not conveyed well online outside of using those awful emoticons I abhor so much (I just noticed you used one. NOT a slam on you).
Last I was aware there are plans on a conference in or near Colorado in the future. I would more than LOVE to sit down with you and have civil conversation. I am always fascinated by the fact that two people can view the same things and draw decidedly differing conclusions.
Peace and Love
AA
At 2:04 AM , Anonymous said...
So I'm responding to the Bull**** comment Brad Stine made. I cannot beleive that we are so efiminate in the church that your "virgin ears" are so hurt by a real word. Not to mention you will not find "don't cuss" anywhere in the Bible.
You will find Jesus using harsh words (in orginal aramaic..not our suburban cleaned up english version) and Paul saying things like (tell someone got to hell if they preach a false gospel...when he says to be eternally condemed to false teachers) he also used strong language about our good deeds being as filthy menstral raggs inthe epistles.
anyways the fact that he must apologize for using strong language that hurts your "feelings" guys shows you why many you men in my age range (18 to 35) don't wanna hang around you.
We want men who are Real about Life and Raw in how they explian it.
Dude I swear if hear one more comment by some pansy "christian man" about curse words I'm gonna freakin loose it! oops sorry...for my rough language..dag men grow a pair!
At 1:18 PM , Anonymous said...
The Washington Post Sunday Style Section for 2/4/2007 had an article on Godmen, and yes they mentioned the bullsh|t thing (out of context, of course).
I think Jesus' brother James said it best:
If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless. (1:26)
I'm not there, but progressively and proactively working on it...
For His Glory
At 10:36 PM , Xtian said...
Anon apostate,
I agree that the internet and its written notes leaves a lot out of the communication process. With that I apologize if my responses are not worded better too. As for meeting I would also like to meet if there is an event near by. We'll see what happens.
With that said i would like to address a couple of comments...
1. Ref the 150,000 that die every day = My point was that instead of wasting time to promote and celebrate our manliness and testosterone, the church should be more focused on the commands it has been given (witnessing, discipleship, etc). In the grand scheme of things, celebrating our testosterone and taking back the church from women is ridiculous and uncalled for. IMO if men (and women) started being obedient and keep the church as God's, then a lot of these problems that godmen is focusing on would go away. As it is, they look like they are only compounding the problem with this "us vs them" attitude.
I would write more but I am running a fever of 101 and feeling like a truck ran over me.
Take care & God bless,
Xtian
At 11:14 AM , Anonymous Apostate said...
I am sorry to hear about your illness. I hope that you are feeling better soon and your health is resotred.
AA
At 10:20 AM , Xtian said...
My comments in bold... this flu is a rough one, but I am getting better :D
So I'm responding to the Bull**** comment Brad Stine made. I cannot beleive that we are so efiminate in the church that your "virgin ears" are so hurt by a real word. Not to mention you will not find "don't cuss" anywhere in the Bible.
Its not that we have become effeminate, or that our "virgin ears" are hurt, but rather we are called to holiness and righteousness in our walk with Him. I have run into lots of "christians" who swear, cuss, use coarse and obscene language and when I ask them if they would do it in church (or before the throne of God), everyone says "of course not!"... my next question is So why do you do it if Jesus lives in you 24/7?
Whats your real, raw answer to that?
Whats strange is that these "tough guys" go silent. Why? Because they are double minded in what they do, IOW they are leading a double life - they show up to church but they cant explain salvation, or the basics of the faith they believe, or even pray out loud... but they sure can cuss like Paul (note my sarcasm). In my experience usually the more macho the "christian" man, the less evident the works of God can be found in their lives - which I hope is not the norm (I have seen exceptions but they are very few).
IMO its important to be single minded in everything - in thought, word and deed. If you dont think our language will be judged, perhaps you need to read and study the bible some more - the bible says everyone will be judged, christians and non-christians alike.
You will find Jesus using harsh words (in orginal aramaic..not our suburban cleaned up english version)
Jesus knew 100% that what He was saying was acceptable for those situation, we however do not (besides there is a difference between hard/bold and cussing, coarse, obscene, profane & vulgar language, etc). Again numerous scriptures tell us to keep our speech clean so we cannot be condemned - too easy, unless you have problems with keeping your tongue under control.
and Paul saying things like (tell someone got to hell if they preach a false gospel...when he says to be eternally condemed to false teachers)
Which is not cussing but Paul just stating a plain fact - if you believe in a false gospel you go to Hell. Its like saying if you commit a crime, you go to jail. I really dont see how you can say that using vulgar language and telling the truth about ones eternal destiny are the same.
he also used strong language about our good deeds being as filthy menstral raggs inthe epistles.
That passage is not obscene, coarse or profane either, just boldly stating that in no way whatsoever can man do works to gain the favor of God and reach heaven (of course if you looked at how people talked and the phrases they used back then, you would know different). Again look at the whole of scripture and you will see that there is bold and sometimes harsh speaking but no vulgar, coarse, cussing by godly men.
anyways the fact that he must apologize for using strong language that hurts your "feelings" guys shows you why many you men in my age range (18 to 35) don't wanna hang around you.
Dude, its not about "feelings" or hurt, its about following Christ, dying to self, and doing His will (santification). What I find is that most men 18-35 dont want to do this. Most would rather do just enough "church stuff" so that they can "check the block" and hopefully sqeak into heaven. Too often when the challenge to obey God's word in the areas of witnessing, discipleship, and deeper growth, most of these men dont show up. If Jesus dying for their sins is not enough for them to obey, then encouraging them to celebrate their testosterone and to challenge them to take back the church from women is missing the mark IMO (the end doesnt justify the means).
We want men who are Real about Life and Raw in how they explian it.
Dude I swear if hear one more comment by some pansy "christian man" about curse words I'm gonna freakin loose it! oops sorry...for my rough language..dag men grow a pair!
So its now about real men, and real, raw life eh? Let me tell you something (this is gonna be fun - I get to rant a bit here and tell it like it is)...
Let this "pansy christian man" tell you a little about himself... I am 6'3 and weigh about 210 and its not in my belly like most men my age. I just spent 20+ years in the Army (infantry, armor, artillery, cavalry, etc), I have spent 12 years overseas and have been in 8 different countries. I've blown up and shot stuff with the best of them. I have a full sleeve tattoo (and then some). I've owned harleys and riden thousands of miles stateside and overseas. I've rapelled and fast roped out of helicopters. I have even gone down in a helicopter too, (courtesy of Uncle Sam) & I have multiple injuries and scars to prove it. I have seen stuff I never want to recall and pray no one will ever have to go thru. I have even buried a few of my, commrades at arms, at Arlington National Cemetary, and unfortunately I've listened to taps too many times.
The point is that despite all the "manly" things I have done over time , the HARDEST is following Christ and OBEYING the commands of God. Stats show that about 98% of U.S. christians have never witnessed to anyone. So what does that mean in real, raw, terms?
It means we have a bunch of "manly" (and pansy) christians who don't take the time to tell their fellow man, or even their own family members about the saving grace of Jesus Christ (despite the eternal consequences of not do so). It means that most men dont pray or have bible studies with their families on a regular basis. Heck most men have never read thru the bible (onle 10% of all U.S. christians read their bible daily which is shameful when you compare that to overseas christians). Whats worse is that over 99%+ of these manly christian men have never discipled any younger men in the faith, but instead choose football, monster truck pulls and Nascar over the call to obedience - not too godly but they sure are manly. But what is wrong with this you ask?
Do you know what its called if someone will not save a person from a buring building, or someone who is drowning if they have all the tools are are able?
Its called depraved indifference - IOW this person is so indifferent to the plight of others that they're non-action shows they have reached the bottom of the barrel morally. Thats how God see us when we dont witness to the lost, disciple new believers or die to self and grow in holiness... he sees us as selfish, spoiled, little brats that whine "me... me... me..." all day long.
Obedience is key, or does the NT just use the term "slaves of righteousness", holiness, a royal priesthood, etc just for fun? As I have been saying, words have meaning.
Most "christian" men cannot acknowledge Jesus Christ before other men (or their own families) and according to our Lord if we dont acknowledge Him before others, He will not acknowledge us before the Father. Remember that Jesus said wide is the way to destruction but narrow is the way to salvation? Perhaps what Jesus said was really true and we need to take seriously His words.
How is that for being real and raw?
But instead of doing the work that God has called us, we would rather discuss our testosterone "felt needs" and how it hurts us men to not be able to be real men (whatever that means... do a study of real godly men in the bible and all this stuff becomes quite clear), to beat our chests, and tell others that its okay to cuss from time to time (when the bible specifically states otherwise, unless you throw proper hermunitics to the wind); to start a crusade to "take back the church from the women" (which they didnt "take" in the first place, they just showed up more than men do - ouchie), instead of encouraging believers to get equiped, worship God and walk in holiness.
How depraved and selfish have we have become here in America? You might think that the modern church in the U.S. is the norm but overseas its considered lacking and immature (at least when you talk abou the modern church and the "felt need" driven stuff"). Did you know that christians who are going thru persecution overseas are praying that the U.S. christians would get their head out of their forth point of contact and get serious about God, instead of just playing "church".
Well for this "pansy christian" I would rather simlify my life from all things that would detour me from finishing the race He has called us to run. I did all that selfish stuff and found it fleeting and of no worth in my spiritual life (and I still have a long way to go). My hope is to open the eyes of other believers so they can get serious about God and His word.
Well thats enough ranting today...
As you can tell I am feeling much better today (fever & coughing is gone, and I'm not yacking anymore). I hope my rant gives you some insight on how I see things in regards to "felt needs" and the modern church in the U.S. If it helps, take it and use it in your walk. If it doesnt, there is no need to call other believers "pansy" for choosing a more dedicated life.
TC&GB,
Xtian
At 1:58 PM , Anonymous said...
Well here we go again! Still not letting it die OK I’ll post one more thing as well. Xtian you speak of great wisdom, and such passion against Brad Stine and this Godmen movement. I had to check you out, thank you for recommending to me to view Band of Brother; I truly loved the 100+ F bombs they spoke, not to mention the pornographic finial show. Saving Private Ryan had no nudity, but boy BS was a tame word to those spoken there. Then we got Tombstone, thanks again I saw frontal nudity twice!!! And do we need to support Ellen DeGeneres in her Finding Nemo finest hour, yes I think I’ll start supporting the Gay agenda, since you do.
You Said, ” Ref the 150,000 that die every day = My point was that instead of wasting time to promote and celebrate our manliness and testosterone, the church should be more focused on the commands it has been given (witnessing, discipleship, etc). In the grand scheme of things, celebrating our testosterone and taking back the church from women is ridiculous and uncalled for. IMO if men (and women) started being obedient and keep the church as God's, then a lot of these problems that godmen is focusing on would go away. As it is, they look like they are only compounding the problem with this "us vs them" attitude.”
I agree so start witnessing and stop promoting your pornographic movies, and movies with a ton of cuss words, and do something, instead of sitting at your computer working at bashing Christian who say BULLSHIT! And if you would ask me I’d say it to my Pastor, and I have!
Slackin
At 11:55 AM , End Of The MSM said...
Good morning,
A very interesting discussion, especially for one just introduced to this site.
To begin, I take one issue with Xtians comment:
Apparently Brad Stine is really lacking when it comes to hermenutics, biblical defintions and use of context. Of course this is to be expected as "godmen" does not allow clergy (only the laity can lead this bottom's up revolution [you got to be kidding me] - again Brad... words have meaning).
I would like very much to hear a biblical defense for the clergy/laity distinction we have that is so profoundly affecting the church today. In my view, this has directly contributed to spiritual laziness/inattention on the part of men in the average church today. Heaven help us if we rely on the average pastor from XYZ seminary to advance the purposes of God in this world. I personally am glad to see this is led by "laity" instead of hired guns. Pretty inspiring. That's a whole other topic.
Having said that, I do agree Xtian's passion in his use of Eph 4:29. Jesus called us to salt and light to a very dark world and as we all know, salt seasons. We all (well most of us) use it on our steaks for flavor. Perhaps our use of Eph. 4:29 language reduces our ability to be salt and therefore should give us some pause when we use particular words.
I suspect the leaders of this organization would agree that being men like the greats of Scripture is the goal. We all might have different ideas of how to acheive this, but I'm sure none would want godly manhood to be defined by the standards of this world - language included. We all know the damage that can be done to the Cause of Christ when lost people see us as no different than their unsaved neighbor.
If Jesus dying for their sins is not enough for them to obey, then encouraging them to celebrate their testosterone and to challenge them to take back the church from women is missing the mark IMO (the end doesn’t justify the means).
Great line, can I steal it?
Blessings
At 6:09 PM , Preacher's Kid said...
Rhetoric and semantics get very tiring...
Brad, I didn't do Godmen, but I thoroughly enjoyed your regular comedy show at a stop at a church near me in Charlotte nearly two years ago.
You are a funny man, doing the serious work of God, and I hate this incident has cast a bad light over your ministry. I don't want this to become the one thing you're "known for".
Xtian, incidentally, how long have you been a Xtian?
At 6:38 PM , Xtian said...
Slackin, nice to hear from you,
I just wanted to let you know that Brad will not be using vulgar language at his events (apparently enough people brought up what God's word actually says in regards to behavior) - so I just wanted to let you know that I am dropping this "Brad said "BS" thing - so its all good.
Now you did bring up a great subject tho... us, our sin, and the santification process. I wish the bible said we would magically become perfect after we give our lives to Christ, but it doesnt. It takes daily submission, prayer, reading His word, dying to self, and incorporating His word in our lives (obedience). What is your take on this? Slackin do you think we are called to be holy/set apart today? That each christian has a responsibility to be children of light and salt, instead of being worthless and dark?
I wasnt really aware until a fellow brother who was discipling me, pointed this out (discipleship, another lost discipline in the modern church of felt needs and self-esteem). The reason I bring it out here? I was hoping those who might not know could search the scriptures further on this subject of behavior, and find the freedom that only Christ can bring.
BTW forgive me if I sounded like I was bashing, but when someone says that its okay to use obscene/offensive language (despite the commands to not do this), then pulls a single verse out of context (disregarding all others), and misinterprets it to justify their actions, I have to say something. Oh well... forgive me for being zealous for God and His word.
As for your remark where you said... I agree so start witnessing...
I do go out and witness on a regular basis - I am even teaching a witnessing class at church. I witnessed at the Denver Gay Pride Fest (one of the biggest in the nation) and a few other big events, and Lord willing, I will do so for many years to come. I have open air preached during the christmas holidays and am looking at doing more of this in 2007 as well. I only mention this, not to brag but to inform you that I practice what I preach (and what is commanded for all christians to do).
My question to you slackin... have you witnessed to anyone is this last week? Do you go out on a regular basis? If you dont, then perhaps do you witness to those whom you run into during the course of the day as your running errands, shopping, getting gas, etc? I dont say this to be mean, I am honestly curious.
As for your comment...... stop promoting your pornographic movies, and movies with a ton of cuss words, and do something...
I have... but I just didnt update my profile - thanks for reminding me, (its now done). Now this is not just erasing some words on my profile, I have gotten rid of over 750+ DVDs and over 200+ CDs due to their content (but this was not because you said so, it was in the past and stemmed from my relationship with Christ). Again its the santification thing, not out of legalism, but because I no longer have the desire to watch or listen to such things. If you read Romans you will see why and how.
Love to chat more, but I gotta run.
TC&GB,
Xtian
At 9:06 PM , Xtian said...
Xtian, incidentally, how long have you been a Xtian?
Well that depends I guess.
If you want the "I said a prayer" once answer, that would be about 20 yrs or so. If you want the "repentance that bears fruit" answer, I think that would be about 10-12.
What I really like have been these last 5 years or so where I have taken a firm stand for my God and my faith.
I guess it doesnt really matter when it all started, just that I am still running the race now.
TC&GB,
Xtain
At 9:22 PM , Xtian said...
Hi EOM (end of msm),
I appreciate your reply where you said...I would like very much to hear a biblical defense for the clergy/laity distinction we have that is so profoundly affecting the church today... directly contributed to spiritual laziness/inattention on the part of men in the average church today... I personally am glad to see this is led by "laity" instead of hired guns. Pretty inspiring. That's a whole other topic.
I have to agree that this is a problem, especially since the "church" in the bible were not organizations of headed by hired guns pastors, music ministers and the like, but rather a collection of local believers, where the more mature christians were choosen to guide the flock. Some churches of today seem to be stuck on titles and offices, whereas the NT church was one where the majority of its members were about active function (servING, givING, ministerING, witnessING, disciplING). I agree that if you let one person tell you what the bible says, then you will slack off (I admit I have been lazy, relying on the pastor to tell me what the bible says - and its so wrong). But as with anything there is good and bad with both sides. For example if you get some laity that doesnt have a good handle on the word, gangrene can spread quickly.
I think it would be a great topic. Since this Brad/BS thing is done, why dont you jot down more thots about this? I would really like to hear what you have to say.
TC&GB (take care & God bless),
Xtian
At 9:58 PM , Xtian said...
BTW I forgot to add a video I compiled. Its on my youtube page...
Its called the Christian Matrix
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpbc7QhHH0Q
Enjoy!
Xtian
At 10:13 PM , Anonymous said...
Xtian,
To answer your question every day, I witness. If I am not tell someone about the man Jesus is, I attempt to live his example, which is much louder than any spoken word. Included with my understanding of the Word I am also a scholar of History and every movement of our historical church.
With that being said, that is the reason I support GODMAN, with such abandonment. History in this country tells us of men coming with there families willing to sacrifice everything to form our nation, and the foundation of our very churches of today.
As we find ourselves debating words we must also realize that words spoken here in America may or may not carry the same meaning as do words around the world. “Bloody” here means, I’ve been hurt and my arm may fall off, but in England it means the equivalent to the F word. It is, but a word, if I tell you that hoohoo is the greatest curse word in Florida, does it make it immoral for you to speak?
I have been in our military for over 20 years now and have seen the some of the things you have. I have also been a Christian for all of them. I am more concerned about why the men of our country, are not in churches. Well, I think it is because the church has lost what our forefathers had. The church once allowed men to lead from the lay positions, under the guiding hand of a Pastor. Those men took a musket in hand and defended the very church body, as did David against Goliath. Why was David a man after God’s own heart? History tells us he was not only a man’s man, full of testosterone, but an Honorable warrior, and leader, who when faced with his own sin owned up to it, and never stopped leading his country. His last words to his son were to go and “prove yourself a man”, which if we see Solomon’s life was where he messed up at, he allowed women to rule where they should not have.
Today’s church has become soft and somewhat weak, as Solomon’s kingdom. We have stopped telling people our God is mighty in breaking down our strongholds, and we guilt them into submission, to a false way of worship. Jesus was not Victorian, and we have forgotten he was a carpenter, and a man who probable hit himself with a hammer or two. Christian’s at one time actually fought the “world” by setting the example of a life that was envious, now we just complain about the “world”. The greatest witness talks the language of those they are trying to reach; does the church of today speak their language? Or do we have our own language? How many people want to know if they are “saved”, or do they just want a friend they can count on?
Here is the greatest test of a man. Can you lead someone to Christ without, saying anything from the Bible? History supports our faith, do we know it? Learn what our forefather’s did, they reached the world, and we have lost it.
As Brad would say, “Blessing on ya!”, and “nothing matters but GOD!”
Slackin
I
At 10:55 AM , Anonymous Apostate said...
I love the change of tone that has happened here. It is so much more supportive now than the negative vibes of earlier.
This is exactly the walking along side each brother and HELPING that they taught at the conference. Much more "Christian" in my opinion.
At 12:13 PM , End Of The MSM said...
Slackin wrote:
Here is the greatest test of a man. Can you lead someone to Christ without, saying anything from the Bible?
With the exception of the Holy Spirit invading time, I'm not sure how this happens.
I've been walking with the Lord for 30+ years now and I personally have never had someone come up to me and say... because you lead your life in such or such a manner, how do I become a Christian? Perhaps in your life experience, you've been fortunate enough to have had this happen and if so, Praise God! I've had to do it the old fashioned way, sharing/confronting/praying, etc.
This post remined me of the Apostle Paul's passion in 1 Corinthians 9:16
16 - "Yet when I preach the gospel, I cannot boast, for I am compelled to preach. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel! If I preach voluntarily, I have a reward; if not voluntarily, I am simply discharging the trust committed to me. What then is my reward? Just this: that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make use of my rights in preaching it."
Brothers, it's hard to preach the Gospel. Believe me, my cowardice regularly defeats me. Years ago, I began to ask God to help me see lost people the way He did as I knew my heart had hardened about the lost. While obviously, I cannot see as He sees in total, He has given a passion to care that my neighbor, coworker, etc has at least "heard" the Gospel. What they do with it is their choice (no, I'm not reformed in my theology). My obligation is to plant and water (1 Cor 3), obviously it's God who brings the harvest.
That said, I believe God would very much be pleased if every man on this blog and thoughout the Body of Christ would engage the greatest mission of all time, sharing the Good News of eternal life through His Son, Jesus Christ.
Just my thought's.
Blessings
At 6:00 PM , Xtian said...
Slackin,
I too am a bit confounded by your unknown witnessing technique.
This “greatest test” that you speak of is not found anywhere in the bible (OT or NT). Jesus confronted people with their sin, then revealed that He was the messiah/savior; that He was the way, the truth, & the life… that no one gets to the Father except thru Him – and He did this all verbally; He even commanded us to do it the same way. Paul verbally preached the law, then grace too, but your saying you can witness without opening your mouth or using the bible? Interesting...
Why am I skeptical? Slackin you provide no scriptures and you expect me to believe this? You say that the example of Jesus, Paul and the disciples verbally teaching, preaching and witnessing were misguided? That everyone missed the boat in regards to the great commission? Or that there is a more powerful way thats not mentioned in the bible? Come on Slackin, that dog just dont hunt and I just don’t buy it (especially when you compare these statements with the standard found in the bible).
Now on the outside and to those who don’t know the bible, your statement sounds really cool, challenging and even manly, but it is totally unbiblical. You cannot lead someone to Christ without referencing the bible (law to the proud/grace to the humble) – to say otherwise is ridiculous. Paul stated that he did not know what sin was (the thing that separates us from God), until the law of God showed him he was a sinner. He broke God’s law and his actions/sin would be judged (its appointed man once to die then the judgment). No one is righteous, we have all broken God’s law – we have all not put God first, we have lied, stolen, dishonored our parents, used His name in vain, committed adultery & murder of the heart, coveted, etc. BTW we are already condemned according to the bible, and the punishment against offending the Almighty (eternal) God is eternal punishment in hell. The only way that we can escape such a fate is thru what Jesus Christ did for us. The “good news” is that Christ took our place and paid the fine that we could not – it was acceptable to God and He raised Christ from the dead.
Now some people say salvation is a free gift, but it does require something from us. We have to repent (turn from our sins), to confess, believe and follow Him.
Thats the full gospel message in a nutshell. The gospel and the entire bible is the whole redemptive work of God bringing man back into the fold. If you don’t use the bible, then how do people know what sin is? Or how do they know what grace is? How do they know they will face judgment? What do they repent from if you dont use the bible? Time and time again in the NT we see where we are commanded to preach the gospel (its even in the OT too).
The command to verbally preach the “good news” requires us give people the bad news first, that way when we bring up the "good news", it makes sense that the lost need a Savior. Our duty as Christians is to preach the good news and then we let the Holy Spirit do the rest. Its not about the messenger, just the message. If I dont tell someone, then I am doing a disservice to those around me (actually its depraved indifference) and its disobedience to our Lord and King. No wonder Paul said "woe to me if I preach not the gospel..." He understood that people where going to Hell and that He had a duty to preach it.
Think of it this way... You have a message that can save people from Hell and usher them into the greatest place ever... Heaven. But you dont want to verbally tell them? or that you can invite anyone and everyone to the biggest party in town, but you wont open your mouth, they just have to see your life and magically they "get it" and become saved?
It doesnt make sense.
Its too bad that we (end of msm, slackin and I) cant get together at a Denny's and talk about his in person. I think it would really cool to discuss this "in person". Oh well...
TC&GB,
Xtian
At 9:04 PM , Xtian said...
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.
At 12:27 PM , Anonymous said...
When I said to witness without the Bible I was referring to speaking the language (not Christian dialect) of those around you. If you read the Word you will see when Jesus went to the fishermen, he did not tell them he would make them florist, they understood fishing. When Jesus spoke he referred to History of their faith, and he tied it into his position as God’s son.
We are to Hid the word in our heart so that we may not sin against God, not beat anyone up with it. The Church in America is more worried about external sight than its internal heart. When you walk up to a person to share your faith, and you are hit with the preverbal, “the Bible was written by men for men” argument, and we tell them, but it was God breathed. If we do not live the Word we will lose them. Yet James said our faith is to be coupled with our works, not one is greater.
James, 1: 22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man, who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does.
As you sit in the Churches across this Nation you will see Mathew 23 lived out in front of our very eyes. We have become a Church of Pharisees, thinking of our own words, and less of how we a perceived. Jesus did care about his reputation, not with the Church select, but with those going to Hell, you never see him dealing with those hurting, like he did those people in the Church who were content to not change. Look at the Lady at the well, he could have hammered her, he spoke on her tradition, and built the word into the reality of our Faith, he shared the truth of her sin, yet provided a positive alternative to her.
John 4: 17 "I have no husband," she replied. Jesus said to her, "You are right when you say you have no husband. 18The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true." 19"Sir," the woman said, "I can see that you are a prophet. 20Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem." 21Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." 25The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us." 26Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."
James is clear on what we doing being as equally important as what we say. James 2 is very clear on this.
What I saying, in my previous post, was we have got to lead people to the faith and our savior with our intelligence, not on our judging eyes. We see our God because we believe through faith, the world will see our God through our love to them, you can’t be salt and flavor to something if you never get poured out onto it, or you only get poured into one spot (like Church, and Church people).
I once asked a person this question: How do you know the Holy Spirit is real and here with you? Most will say (90%) because I’ve experienced it! Well I say we experience you, is what you DO leading people to Jesus, because 70+% of what you say is nonverbal.
Slackin
At 5:37 PM , Perttu said...
If some person says "I choose to believe in Jesus and leave my BS life behind." Doesn't those words save him? Or are those words corrupt? Can corrupt words save a man? Does God hear his words even if there is profanity? Think about it in your heart and you will discover what corrupt communication truly means.
Hanging on a single word is the same thing the pharisees and hypocrites did for Jesus and the disciples as well.
They knew the scripture and the law but didn't know Him who wrote it.
They were more interested in trivial things and useless disputes than in Him, they just didn't want to see Him.
At 3:00 PM , Xtian said...
My comments in bold...
When I said to witness without the Bible I was referring to speaking the language (not Christian dialect) of those around you. If you read the Word you will see when Jesus went to the fishermen, he did not tell them he would make them florist, they understood fishing.
Okay but the command to verbally witness is all about sin, hell, redemption, the resurrection, etc. Of course when I witness to a street racer, I am not going to use examples that center on flowers.
When Jesus spoke he referred to History of their faith, and he tied it into his position as God’s son.
Actually He talked and revealed people's sin. Ref the woman at the well, the pharisees, the rich young ruler, etc.
We are to Hid the word in our heart so that we may not sin against God, not beat anyone up with it.
Then how do you address what Paul wrote about using the law lawfully? And that people wont know what to repent from, unless the law is preached? BTW Jesus, Paul and the disciples - along with thousands of great evangelists & martyrs have preached this same message - there must be judgment to show people that they are not worthy, and are in fact going to face God' wrath.
When you walk up to a person to share your faith, and you are hit with the preverbal, “the Bible was written by men for men” argument, and we tell them, but it was God breathed.
This has never come up in the hundreds of people I have witnessed to. Of course if you try to use intellectual arguments in your witnessing, you will probably get this response. If you use the law and go after the conscience, you by pass all those useless arguments.
If we do not live the Word we will lose them. Yet James said our faith is to be coupled with our works, not one is greater.
Agree that we must believe, confess, repent, and obey in every area of our life.
James, 1: 22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.
Problem is most modern christians dont obey, they would rather believe (but even demons believe and tremble).
Jesus did care about his reputation
Actually He did not, He cared about His father in heaven's reputation.
Look at the Lady at the well, he could have hammered her, he spoke on her tradition, and built the word into the reality of our Faith, he shared the truth of her sin, yet provided a positive alternative to her.
No... Jesus initiated discussion with her, then turned to spiritual matters, then confronted her about her sin (adultery, lying, coveting, fornication, etc). If was only when she was confronted with the essense of the Law, did she finally contend that only the Messiah could help her.
It was only after that, did Jesus reveal Himself as the Messiah. Its not about a positive alternative, which suggests that there is more than one way to deal with sin, and there is not.
What I saying, in my previous post, was we have got to lead people to the faith and our savior with our intelligence, not on our judging eyes.
Ummm... I dont see any command in the bible to use our intelligence. Paul even said that he did not use wise, intelligent or persuasive words, but rather Christ crucified (law, sin, grace, repentance, etc).
If your a liar, adulterer, murderer, blashphemer, etc, you have not place in Heaven. If you do not preach the law, then how do people know what to repent from? True we mustnt judge others from a place of pride, but as the bible says to do so with gentleness and kindness. Most christians dont know that this is possible but the bible is filled with examples of such.
We see our God because we believe through faith, the world will see our God through our love to them, you can’t be salt and flavor to something if you never get poured out onto it, or you only get poured into one spot (like Church, and Church people).
I agree that you cant give away what you dont have. But the word says we are to testify and verbally witness to the lost (along with living & follow Christ. If your christianity is only evident in church settings, thats not a good sign.
I once asked a person this question: How do you know the Holy Spirit is real and here with you? Most will say (90%) because I’ve experienced it! Well I say we experience you, is what you DO leading people to Jesus, because 70+% of what you say is nonverbal.
Remember the Holy Spirit is our comforter & helper that Jesus sent for us "christians" to be bold in our lives and christian witness.
Claiming that our main duty or that the majority is "nonverbal" witnessing is disobeying the command to teach & preach to the lost (Jesus said that those who truly love Him, obey His commands... all His commands).
What good does it do, if you just live a life, and dont verbally tell others of the saving grace?
Its like seeing a blind man walking toward a 1,000 foot cliff, but instead of verbally telling him about the cliff you just live your "biblical" life and believing that he will see your christian life. But there is a problem... the man is blind to the things of God; matter of fact the bible says its foolishness to him. So we must verbally engage people and inform them about their condition and how judgment is coming to all mankind. We use the law to present God's standards and then the Holy Spirit will do the converting. Its all about the message...
Here is what I say when I witness to those at the DMV...
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Hello folks... I just wanted to ask you a question while your waiting to take your driving tests...
What are we doing when we drive?
A survey found that the majority of drivers do a lot of things that distract them from following the rules of the road. Here are the top five “distractions”
Top 5 Driving Distractions
1. Playing with the radio (79%)
2. Exceeding the speed limit (61%)
3. Driving with one hand (61%)
4. Talking on a cell phone (51%)
5. Eating and drinking (45%)
*Note: all show people doing something other than obeying the local driving laws.
More concerning is that 90% of respondents said a family member or close friend had a car crash because of the above distractions, but 56% didn’t change their driving habits even though it contributed to the accident they were in!
All groups admit to ignoring some of the driving laws. They know that its bad, but do not see the need to change their behavior. Unfortunately people try to give excuses for their actions, and most people don’t think that they will ever be in an accident.
But you might be saying "I follow most of the laws, but…"
What’s interesting is the way we follow the local driving laws, is how most people deal with God and His laws. We think we know the laws, but too often we ignore them and are distracted by other things. Most of us think we are pretty good. Lets look at God’s manual, the bible, and see how good you are according to His standard...
Take this test to see if you’re
a “good person”
1. Ever told a lie (even a “white” lie)?
2. Ever stolen anything (regardless of value)?
3. Ever committed adultery? Remember Jesus said that if you just look at someone with lust you committed adultery in your heart.
4. Have you ever used God’s name in vain, or used it as curse word?
If you answered “Yes” to these questions, by your own admission you’re a lying, thieving, adulterer at heart, who blasphemes God, and we only looked at four of the Ten Commandments. If you died today and God judged you by the Ten Commandments would you be innocent or guilty? If you answered honestly you know that you would be guilty (along with everyone else).
Now you might be saying…
“But God won’t send me to Hell…”
Top 3 excuses why God won’t punish me to Hell...
1. God is love, He can’t send people to Hell
2. God is forgiving, I’ll just say “I’m Sorry”
3. I have done lots of good things in my life since then
Lets look how you would do in a courtroom on earth using the same excuses. Imagine you committed some crimes, you go to court and plead guilty (you just admitted it). By law you must pay the fine or go to prison, but you tell the judge the following...
“Judge, I don’t have the money to pay the fine, and I don’t think you will send me to prison because your loving and forgiving. I’m not as bad as lots of other people and since then, I have done a lot of good things in my life. I even go to church. I am really, really sorry. So your Honor, I don’t think you will send me to prison.”
Now here is what the Judge would say…
“Your right, I am good, loving and forgiving, but because I am all those things I must do what’s right and punish you. You say that other people are worse than you, but you are here for what YOU did wrong, and not for what they did. As for being sorry, that does not excuse you from breaking the law nor the punishment it carries.”
Now if we expect righteous judgment here on earth, how much more will God uphold His laws on Judgment Day?
Now you might be saying “Gee this is really bad news, is there any “Good News”?”
Here is the “Good News”…
God doesn’t want anyone to end up in Hell. So He provided the way. He sent His son, Jesus Christ… “God commended His love towards us, in that while we were yet sinners (breaking God’s law), Christ died for us.” Jesus died for your sins, then rose from the dead and defeated death. In other words Jesus paid the fine and took the punishment that you so rightly deserve. Picture it this way (go back to the courtroom situation). ..
Your sentenced and your being led to prison when someone you don’t know steps up to the judge and pays your fine in full. How would that make you feel? Grateful and relieved. Well that is exactly what Jesus did for you, He paid your fine when you couldn’t. According to the law, you can go free, but there is something you must do…
“What do I have to do?”
The bible says in order to get God’s forgiveness you must repent (turn from your sins because it offends God), confess your sins to God, and put your trust in Jesus Christ. We are to put on Jesus like we would trust a seat belt. If you were going to crash into another car it wouldn’t do any good to just believe in the seat belt, you have to put the seat belt on. Please don’t ignore God’s manual and His rules. Seriously consider what you have read because no one knows when they will die, and you might not have another chance.
If you do pray and repent, read your bible daily and obey what you read. God will give you peace and strength to go through any situation., and He will never leave or forsake you.
Thank you for reading this and
be careful when you drive!
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While it is important to live the christian life, we must obey the command to verbally witness, teach and preach the "Good News". If we dont present the bad news, how will the good news ever make sense?
Too easy, but modern christianity is too concerned about feelings and not being judged. We judge in every other area of our lives (home, school, work, recreation, etc) but why do we not tell others about God's standards?
At home we have rules to follow and if our children dont obey they are punished. At school if you dont meet the standards you pay the price with a failing grade. At work if you dont meet the standards of your boss you get fired. In sports if you break the rules you get a penalty. Ummm...
So why is it so hard to tell others about God's standards/laws. That if we break His laws we will pay the penalty... Hell. Modern christians today wont tell others, and that is truly sad.
Anyway I gotta run, but let me leave you with a video I compiled. Its on my youtube page...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1aFYXDbiVI
Peace
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